Curse

upier · Nov 16, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The build in your screenshot seems customized to the area. You brought 2 cure hexes (even though you didnt bring any other healing prayer skills) and 2 minion masters knowing that the area has lots of exploitable corpses and degen hexes. As for me, I usually use a generic build like sabway or discordway and still managed to vanquish Dalada without bringing a single hex removal other than Mhenlo's sucky deny hexes.

Actually no.
It's my completely generic build - although I have replaced SoF with Suffering because it seems that they guys hate casting SoF if the target isn't a weapon mastery guy. And I bring hex removal because I can.
I've been vanquishing the Jade Sea (I'd run around in harder areas to test it more - but only JS advances my Luxy-title and I don't care about other stuff so it will just have to wait a bit longer) with it and I am seeing that the build can manage just fine by adding just one healer hench. The guys protect well enough to dump the prot hench - which means there is more room for offense.
Will there be areas where I'll want a second monky hench or even a healer hero?
Of course!
And for those areas - I'll just add it. I am not going around shouting to not bring any healing! I am just saying that most of the time - you won't need that much healing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I could devote another elite to healing. However, you also have to accept that since I add extra hexes and conditions (enfeebling blood and shadow of fear). Plus the minion bomber is usually casting death nova/ minions/ aegis/ protective spirit instead of focusing on discord. The healer usually is the first hero at the start of the battle to discord. Because no health has been lost so they can be free to add another 90 damage while the other necro's get distracted by minions or cursing.

Restoration elites are lackluster, weapon of remedy is only used mainly for conditions. Xinrae's weapon is something the ai can't use as a pre-protect. I could make them have word of healing and use monk healing spells, however a free bonus 90-100 damage for an elite which really can't be replaced and have too much of an effect.

I agree, that it may be "overkill" but when your fighting bosses or multiple monks who keep healing, the extra discords are what pushes the enemy over the edge. Plus, with all the minions tanking the healers can get off a few discords before we start taking damage.

The healers, will focus on healing when needed and will aid in the insane damage as needed. I play in a lot of hardmode areas and especially with all the vanquishing, it helps a lot against bosses as well as the areas where there are a few 3-5 healers. I do also run finish him and my friend runs pain inverter as well as another ap nuker.

We completed 4 or so kurzick vanquishes this weekend in about 35-45 minutes with our discordway build. Ferndale, Eternal Grove and a few others. Only one or two deaths throughout all the vanquishes, because of a hard hitting boss and the heroes were slow to cast.

Sweet. I was just curious since I never get to play in 6-hero Discord teams, but from what I am seeing in 3-hero hero is that it could be sufficient to not run it.

Daesu · Nov 16, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Will there be areas where I'll want a second monky hench or even a healer hero?
Of course!
And for those areas - I'll just add it. I am not going around shouting to not bring any healing! I am just saying that most of the time - you won't need that much healing.

Agree that if you have enough protection you dont need as much healing.

I initially suggested that you try out the build in Dalada as I didn't expect you to bring 2 cure hexes as the only healing prayer skills, to heal from the degen hexes.

If you dont bring the cure hexes and just rely on Mhenlo's sucky healing, I am sure you would notice the energy problem I saw from him.

I thought you would only be taking protection skills from the monk class. I wanted to show you how even a single restore N/Rt could brute force heal through a heavy degen hex area without hex removal, thus making the restore N/Rt a staple for many generic hero builds like sabway and discordway. The healing effectiveness of a restore N/Rt has already been proven across many pve areas ever since Sab posted her build months ago.

With near infinite energy and high heal/energy skills, you can brute force heal through almost anything without needing to customize your build often (i.e. fool proof).

MercenaryKnight · Nov 16, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Well, I am going to share my discordway. Before I do, I state this is not the best variant, or intended for 100% synergy. I originally made these, because I wanted something me and my partner could run with or without playing together. So their is enough synergy in spirits and different hexes/ conditions. But for the most part they could be played by themselves with hero/hench. Also effective if we wanted to split in certain areas, like trying to find the last few vanquishing monsters.

I have used these builds effectively, and know that there are better uses. Such as not having 2 curse necromancers. But, I get lazy and don't intend to load up a different build each time I want to go play by myself or with partner. These have been tested in all of the hm kurzick vanquishes and average time was 35-40 mins.

Ran this with 2 ap characters, 1 paragon with ymlad, assassin support and finish him. Mesmer had all but traded finish him for pain inverter. There was a few deaths, generally due to hero ai not casting quick enough against bosses. But besides that it went smoothly.

[build=MoW1;OANEUrlX22EzKD2BExu7oWVNaA]

[build=Olias1;OANDUshvSxMKgVBoB3V1DBEVVA]

[build=Livia1;OAhjUoGYIPxsM2kTaOMp2V1LGA]

[build=MoW2;OANEUsdX22EzKDfC2wu7oa0qqA]

[build=Olias2;OANDUshvSxMKgVBoB3V1DBEVVA]

[build=Livia2;OAhjUoGYIPxsM2kTaOMHnV1LGA]

These builds do not require an assassin's promise nuker, because they have enough hexes/ condition to keep it rolling on their own. However, ap nukers do a lot of damage and set up the requirement quicker, so if possible you should try to atleast have 1 person capable of doing it. If needed extra defense, you can grab any person with save yourselves. Which isn't needed but can make it pretty much foolproof to get through any area.

Dual barbs and dwaynas sorrow is not needed. I only added incase of playing by themselves with hero/hench or splitting. Because barbs does add a lot of damage quickly and dwaynas provides healing if it's needed. Also, shambling horror's is not required, however when your in a 6 discord team stuff is usually being steam rolled so quickly it's not that hard to amass an army quickly by stuff dropping like flies, even in hardmode. I believe the highest we hit was, 3 shambling/ jagged for each master of whisper, along with about 6-8 minions each olias.

I should also add, shield of absorption didn't seem to get used much, and when it did it wasn't worth the effort. So you could replace that with whatever other protective spell you want. However, the double death novas were amazing when enemies used aoe like splinter weapon or churning earth. Seeing 3-5 death novas pop off and instantly drop a mob to a quarter of their health was nice.

Daesu · Nov 17, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

With 6 heroes, you should at least bring some hex removals and I dont think you need multiple copies of Death Nova. 1 necro staying back is bad enough. You also dont need multiple copies of Dwayna Sorrow since it is an AoE enchant. 4 minion skills is too minion-dependent IMO.

daze · Nov 17, 2008, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

[build=MoW1;OANEUrlX22EzKD2BExu7oWVNaA]

[build=Olias1;OANDUshvSxMKgVBoB3V1DBEVVA]

[build=Livia1;OAhjUoGYIPxsM2kTaOMp2V1LGA]

[build=MoW2;OANEUsdX22EzKDfC2wu7oa0qqA]

[build=Olias2;OANDUshvSxMKgVBoB3V1DBEVVA]

[build=Livia2;OAhjUoGYIPxsM2kTaOMHnV1LGA]

That is the great thing about discordway, even builds like this can work. Although it is far from optimal.. just off the top of my head, id say too many minions and not enough hex/condition removal. I use a 6 hero discordway with 1 [[animate bone minions] and 2 [[animate shambling horror]s and i have yet to EVER have 30 minions at a time usually its about 20. Also it might be better to swap out one of the [[weapon of warding] for [[vengeful weapon]. And [[enfeebling blood] is a good skill

But it just looks like you mirrored all 3 builds which just seems like the lazy way to do things. (no offense)

MercenaryKnight · Nov 17, 2008, 07:50 AM // 07:50

I will respond, I stated that most of my builds were meant to be able to use solo as well as in a group. The 2 copies of death nova worked fine. My heroes generally didn't have problems hanging too far back. Not to mention, we killed so fast even in hm that with all the death novas, 2-3 necro's could use a corpse each at a time.

The 2 dwaynas sorrows were incase we split or play solo. So, thanks for the criticism but try reading my reasoning.

Shambling horror's aren't meant to be spammed they have a recharge. I don't know about you, but when we played stuff was dropping so quickly that there was more corpses than 2 summon minions could use. Not to mention, the bombers usually focus on using death novas more and so the curser can bring up an extra minion which will last long and add another minion on death.

Hexes did nothing to us. The degen from them was easily healed through and hex removal imo is pointless. Because, heroes can not prioritize hex removal. They will remove the stupidest hexes, parasitic bond, suffering, all of which deal minimal damage. So, if you want hex removal add it wherever you want. But it didn't affect us any and unless I went into say fow hm I would not bother because I would see a very minimum improvement.

I could remove both death novas, both sets of dwaynas sorrow and both shambling horrors and still play this effectively with those slots blank. However, they add to the party and helped a lot by adding more minion fodder and more damage with 100 damage death novas on each death. Considering the cast time, when we had 2 death novas being spammed we had like 3-6 novas going off at once when an enemy in hm would use an aoe attack. More than a single nova can do.

Vengeful weapon is bad because heroes will use it on a person who has weapon of warding on them if their taking damage. Which most likely means, they are being hit by physical and will die once weapon of warding disappears. So again, hero ai can't use it effectively.

I am going to state, that if your not killing fast enough or are in an area where minions don't continuously die quickly, then feel free to remove any extra minions. But if your getting rid of minions, to add a hex remover or condition remover I think that is a waste of a slot(unless corpses are not in high supply). Minions absorb a lot of spells and hexes from enemies. Far better than a small heal and removing the hex, when you can get the hex wasted on minions for free.

If you want 100% synergy
Make 1 character with only curses as in, both hexes/ conditions or whatever you want. Change the other curser to whatever you want, dedicated healer with (imo wasteful) hex removals, dwaynas sorrow and whatever you want. You can make it into anything your heart desires.

If you can't make use of all the minions, either your killing slower or just in an area where corpses aren't in high supply. Either way, take them out and put in whatever you want. Another curse is overkill, a hex remover is a waste(you can fight me on this forever, but everyone will agree that hex removal on a hero is a waste until they can distinguish getting rid of a backfire or a suffering) not many other choices without speccing into another attribute line and using it.

If you think two death novas are a waste, then get rid of 1. I didn't say copy my build and follow it blindly. I use both because we kill things so fast and the minions die so quickly, that they can both cast novas on dying minions so quickly, that they get double the damage produced which results in mobs exploding or at near death where a single finish him will take them out.

I already stated that the build I posted, was for me and my partner. So we would never have to switch builds to play with hero/hench and then another build whenever we played together. It is lazy and not as effective. Because of the fact that there are copies of skills which won't be used at the same time. Dwayna's sorrow and barbs. However, it works together and separately and as much as everyone hates the dual death novas. I suggest you try it sometime especially if you have 2 sets of summon minions. When you double or triple your minion count, that is the potential to double or triple your death novas and results in anywhere from 200-1000 or higher armor ignoring damage.

daze · Nov 17, 2008, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Id like to know what area could possible provide enough corpses to feed 4 minion masters. I thought that all those trolls on snake dance vanquish might get me up to 30 minions but i could barely gate past 20.

Daesu · Nov 17, 2008, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I will respond, I stated that most of my builds were meant to be able to use solo as well as in a group.

Well, you did say you got lazy about it and don't intend to load up a different build each time you want to go play by yourself or with partner, in your post. It is your choice whether you want a synergized 6-heroes team or just two 3-heroes team for splitting.

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The 2 dwaynas sorrows were incase we split or play solo. So, thanks for the criticism but try reading my reasoning.

Read above.

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Shambling horror's aren't meant to be spammed they have a recharge. I don't know about you, but when we played stuff was dropping so quickly that there was more corpses than 2 summon minions could use. Not to mention, the bombers usually focus on using death novas more and so the curser can bring up an extra minion which will last long and add another minion on death.

Implicit assumption is, lots of exploitable corpses in the area.

Quote:

Hexes did nothing to us. The degen from them was easily healed through and hex removal imo is pointless. Because, heroes can not prioritize hex removal. They will remove the stupidest hexes, parasitic bond, suffering, all of which deal minimal damage. So, if you want hex removal add it wherever you want. But it didn't affect us any and unless I went into say fow hm I would not bother because I would see a very minimum improvement.

Not all hexes are degen based. Some hexes are more devastating than degen but fortunately, they are rare in PvE (e.g. BackFire, VoR, Empathy, Diversion, Ineptitude, etc.). But since you have a 6 heroes team, bringing 1 hex removal is still alot more useful than an extra copy of Dwayna Sorrow, which is AoE anyway. Even if it is only degen hexes where you are, getting rid of the degen hex also saves you significant hp which you would otherwise need to brute force heal through.

Quote:

I could remove both death novas, both sets of dwaynas sorrow and both shambling horrors and still play this effectively with those slots blank. However, they add to the party and helped a lot by adding more minion fodder and more damage with 100 damage death novas on each death. Considering the cast time, when we had 2 death novas being spammed we had like 3-6 novas going off at once when an enemy in hm would use an aoe attack. More than a single nova can do.

I am not as fascinated by Death Nova. It is a 2s cast per minion. So what if a few minions happen to die at the same time around a target giving off huge damage. You could have achieved even better results with your 6 discords anyway. One copy of Death Nova and Dwayna Sorrow is more than enough.

If you really dont know what to bring to fill up the blank skill slots, then I suggest bringing more healing.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 17, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Implicit assumption is, lots of exploitable corpses in the area.

Not all hexes are degen based. Some hexes are more devastating than degen but fortunately, they are rare in PvE (e.g. BackFire, VoR, Empathy, Diversion, Ineptitude, etc.). But since you have a 6 heroes team, bringing 1 hex removal is still alot more useful than an extra copy of Dwayna Sorrow, which is AoE anyway. Even if it is only degen hexes where you are, getting rid of the degen hex also saves you significant hp which you would otherwise need to brute force heal through.

I am not as fascinated by Death Nova. It is a 2s cast per minion. So what if a few minions happen to die at the same time around a target giving off huge damage. You could have achieved even better results with your 6 discords anyway. One copy of Death Nova and Dwayna Sorrow is more than enough.

If you really dont know what to bring to fill up the blank skill slots, then I suggest bringing more healing.

First off, I stated if you can't make use of the extra minions then DO NOT BRING THEM. If your killing so fast that your leaving unexploited corpses behind as your running into the next group, when you could make an extra shambling horror or 2 out of them why not?

Second, I didn't state all hexes are degen based. I stated a hero can not I repeat CAN NOT decide whether to use a hex removal on backfire/ VoR/ SS or a parasitic bond. So unless your going to waste seven spots on hex removals so that they can remove every single hex you get on yourself. It is a waste. Do not argue here, if you want I suggest making a poll as to whether or not to make heroes bring hex removers. Let the people vote on that decision in a new thread. If you play with minimal hex removers you should notice that in the areas where you actually need hex removers, you need heavy duty ones that will get rid of 3+ hexes, because in pve monsters spam hexes everywhere. I wish heroes could prioritize their hex removers, then they would be valueable.

Here is a scenario, hero uses remove hex on one person that was hexed with suffering. So they don't take x amount of health degen damage. The rest of the party is still under suffering. Healer drops ashes or life ends and heals the damage on the rest of the heroes. How much energy did the healer save? The answer is none, it used the same amount of energy to heal the entire party.

They aren't 4 minion masters, it's 2 minion masters and 2 shambling horrors, who manage to cast every what 30 seconds. I vanquished every kurzick area this weekend. There were times where we had about 6 shambling horrors/ jaggeds on our curses, and about 6-8 minions on each olias. Because we constantly steamroll things and when our minions die, they are popping off 4+ death novas. Which will generally result in a mob of enemies being near death at the same time.

Like I said, we were killing so quickly that we would have more than 2 corpses exploitable during the recharge of bone minions. Resulting in our cursers having an option to bring an extra minion into battle. It wasn't necessary, but it gave another minion to pop a death nova off of. If you haven't seen the power of having anywhere from 4-8 death novas popping off and watching a mob of enemies drop to dead or almost dead. I suggest you try bringing an extra death nova if you have the minions to make use of them both.

Also, heroes don't waste their time casting death novas. They generally cast a couple as were preparing/ targeting the monk or hard enemy and setting up condition/ hex for the discords. Then not to mention our healers are also providing discords, which someone was stating earlier you don't even need more than 3 discords to effectively put out a reliable stream of damage. The fact is, death nova can be applied early and be in effect as soon as they get hit by an enemy. That's a bonus 200-800+ damage for literally no effort. All while still having them discording. If you don't want two death novas to be able to pop off anywhere from 200-800+ damage for free then feel free to remove them.

Also, I don't know about you but I don't need any more healing. With the 2 restoration necromancers, 2 copies of aegis and dwaynas sorrow I haven't needed any excess heals even through my vanquishes with double damage rits and eles. They went down quickly when 8 out of the 20 minions were absorbing their spells and popping off death novas.

daze · Nov 17, 2008, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

They aren't 4 minion masters, it's 2 minion masters and 2 shambling horrors, who manage to cast every what 30 seconds.

Semantics.. if a hero is a master of a minion, then it is a minion master. Regardless if the hero has 1 minion skill or 8. if you added a minion skil you your bar then you would be a minion master as well. Because you would be the master of at least one minion.

But i guess since your build is made to split, then it makes a bit more sense. I can see how it would be more effective as two teams in 2 areas of a map with >10 minions per team.

Daesu · Nov 17, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

If you play with minimal hex removers you should notice that in the areas where you actually need hex removers, you need heavy duty ones that will get rid of 3+ hexes, because in pve monsters spam hexes everywhere. I wish heroes could prioritize their hex removers, then they would be valueable.

That is only true for 3-heroes build where you have limited skill slots, so instead of bringing hex removers, you heal through it. In your case, you have lots of spare skill slots that you are even bringing 2 copies of Dwayna Sorrow, how can bringing just 1 hex remover be such a bad thing then?

Quote:

Here is a scenario, hero uses remove hex on one person that was hexed with suffering. So they don't take x amount of health degen damage. The rest of the party is still under suffering. Healer drops ashes or life ends and heals the damage on the rest of the heroes. How much energy did the healer save? The answer is none, it used the same amount of energy to heal the entire party.

Why dont I give you another scenario? Player A is hexed with level 12 conjure nightmare, which gives -8 health degen for 13s. That is a total of 208 hp, which you have to heal through without a hex remover. That needs more than a single cast of Spirit Light to heal through, but if you only bring a Remove Hex, you can save yourself that 208hp just by a single cast. Not to mention if it manages to remove a dangerous hex like diversion or VoR/Backfire. If you are that concern about the AI removing just any hexes, then disable the skill and cast it manually. Remove Hex has only a 8s recharge anyway.

Death Nova depends on minions and therefore exploitable corpse availability. It is not a dependable damage for everywhere. If the enemy casters have Ray of Judgement or strong AoE attack, your minions can be wiped out from far. Discord is still the more reliable damage to depend on.

If you dont know what else to bring, just bring more healing. You can never get enough of it in tough areas.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 17, 2008, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Well, in your scenario I can guarantee that player A will not be the only player under the effect of a hex. So what's to say that someone else didn't get hit with a pointless hex and your hero removed that already leaving your skill to be on recharge? That is the problem with heroes. You could get hexed with an aoe pointless hex and they would remove the first hex that gets sent on you.

So you have to pray the first hex a monster hits you with is one that actually is worth removing. Otherwise, they will remove the first hex they see. Which could very well be one non threatening and pointless hex.

Also, even if there was a ray of judgement the fact is, enemy monsters do not have enough artificial intelligence, to use that spell instantly to spike your entire minion army. They have a bunch of other skills they could be using and most likely they will not use that as their first one reliably. Not to mention, if I already knocked the smiter down with you move like a dwarf, followed by sin for a double knockdown then they won't be casting and discord will spike them down before they can even get off more than 2 casts.

I suggest you make a thread with a poll about hex removals, then we can get a general idea as to whether people think it's valueable or not. For me, they will never be useful, unless I know there is a certain area (such as fissure of woe) where the majority of hexes are super damaging, spiteful spirit, empathy etc. In which case you need stuff like hex eater signet to get rid of multiple hexes.

I should replace dwayna's sorrow and I will consider it. Especially if I play with my partner more often. The only problem is, what is a single skill that I can add that will make a huge difference in my team. Heroes can't even stack the protective pots because once one needs to drop it, they all drop it and waste theirs.

daze · Nov 17, 2008, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That is only true for 3-heroes build where you have limited skill slots, so instead of bringing hex removers, you heal through it. In your case, you have lots of spare skill slots that you are even bringing 2 copies of Dwayna Sorrow, how can bringing just 1 hex remover be such a bad thing then?

When i go to FoW or other places where hexes can get nasty i just get rid of one of the 6 [[discord] and stick in [[divert hexes]. It works wonders for clearing allies of a whole stack of hexes

upier · Nov 17, 2008, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Id like to know what area could possible provide enough corpses to feed 4 minion masters. I thought that all those trolls on snake dance vanquish might get me up to 30 minions but i could barely gate past 20.

I don't see corpses being that much of an issue.
I was vanquishing Maishang Hills with a guildy and I ran with my 3 Discord necros and he ran with Sabway (he just switched Jagged for Discord) - and we ran around with a very high number of stiffies. The issue is that in MK's build the only healing the minions get is Life. So you are probably going to lose some minions running from one group of foes to another.
So you probably could be able to support some high numbers of minions - you'd just need to heal them better.
(Not that this is relevant to this build - because you aren't going for the biggest number of minions - you just want to create a huge wall - and anything with 2 MMs does that.)

On MK's build:
I find 2 Death Nova's a must even when I am just running 3 necros (2 of them have Minions). The big problem I have with them is running DN on the MM. I'd seriously think of dumping DN onto the curser - either by replacing SoLS or just switching out Rip for it. Because otherwise the MM has too many spammable things with long casting times. But on the other hand - the curses provides the Hex/Condition req for the Discord spam so ...
I just don't think you are getting as much mileage out of DN as you could. You'd probably only get more if you'd build up each bar for a team of 8 - rather then just duplicating them.
But as long as it's working ...

The thing I REALLY need to state again though is look at your necros and their e-management. Like I said - I NEVER run SoLS - and energy isn't a problem. So I'd seriously try to not run it for a few times and see if you maybe get a free slot out of that.

Daesu · Nov 17, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Well, in your scenario I can guarantee that player A will not be the only player under the effect of a hex. So what's to say that someone else didn't get hit with a pointless hex and your hero removed that already leaving your skill to be on recharge? That is the problem with heroes. You could get hexed with an aoe pointless hex and they would remove the first hex that gets sent on you.

But you have lots of free skill slots so much so that you are bringing 2 Dwayna Sorrow, 2 Death Nova, and 4 minion skills. Replacing one of them with a hex remover would still save you significant hp if they are degen hexes. What if one of those hexes turn out to be Diversion?

Quote:

So you have to pray the first hex a monster hits you with is one that actually is worth removing. Otherwise, they will remove the first hex they see. Which could very well be one non threatening and pointless hex.

Remove Hex has only 8s recharge and you can disable it and micro-manage if you prefer. Since you have so many spare skill slots you can even bring more than one.

This whole cover hex concept came from pvp anyway, which monster AI is too stupid to use.

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Also, even if there was a ray of judgement the fact is, enemy monsters do not have enough artificial intelligence, to use that spell instantly to spike your entire minion army.

Not true. They use that very well on minion armies.

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They have a bunch of other skills they could be using and most likely they will not use that as their first one reliably. Not to mention, if I already knocked the smiter down with you move like a dwarf, followed by sin for a double knockdown then they won't be casting and discord will spike them down before they can even get off more than 2 casts.

There are usually a few smiters (e.g. Afflicted monks) around and your YMLAD is only single targeting. Not to mention having a few Saltspray Dragons (or SF Flame Djinns) would annihilate your minion army fast. Bottom line is you shouldn't rely on your minion army and Death Nova being always there.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 17, 2008, 09:11 AM // 09:11

I understand that SoLS is not required. The main reason I use it, is for an extra self heal and if some heroes especially minion bombers are casting protective spirit a lot and summoning minions and using aegis. Or if your fighting a long fight and minions already die they need a little boost.

Life isn't the only heal, the healers will provide a few heals on the way. It's ok if a few die because your quickly getting them back once the old ones death nova a fresh mob.

I notice that they do get a little bit stuck. However the great thing about shambling horrors on the curser is they do not get stuck behind and gets a fresh minion with only minimal degen. Also, when we first aggro were already spiking down an enemy with 4 out of the 6 (2 are using death nova and prepping minions). Then once an enemy rushes towards us the mob gets stopped withing about half an aggro bubble of us.

I do not know why, but for once our bombers did not seem to ever get stuck behind by an aggro circle. They would be like half an aggro circle behind us, but they never were too far out. Which resulted in them rushing to meet the melee just before they got to us. Even if they did get to us and attack us, we would just spike them down with ymlad and discord and then move on to the next enemy.

Daesu, I didn't state I needed death nova, I stated that it is a very good thing to have. I was in all the kurzick areas, they were wiping our minions with churning earth, splinter weapons and just about anything you can throw at us. For the most part, we'd summon an assassin at an enemy and they would waste their first spell on them (we have 2 because 2 people). Giving minions enough time to get close enough for death nova to damage. Also, I watched plenty of monsters, they don't instantly cast the second you get in aggro range. They can sometimes end up auto attacking for a second and then casting.

If they wipe out your minions oh well, they aren't your only source of damage, just a bonus. Then you just start discording them all one by one and you summon new minions. Not to mention, if there are 2 smiters I could target one, friend target another and bam problem solved. Also, searing flames djinns cast sf, glowing gaze then sf again with aftercasts can generally get minions in range.

There are a lot of ways to get your minions into death nova range. Whether it's casting a decoy assassin or knocking down the casters for a second. Not to mention because of our curse necromancers with shambling horrors, those go in first and result in 4 or so of your minions dying. Then the bulk of your army (the minions with death nova) rush in after they waste their aoe and bam still huge damage. So you can consider the shambling horrors the decoys for your true army.

daze · Nov 17, 2008, 09:18 AM // 09:18

[build=Curser with shambling;OAhkUsG6hGGUMTVlColA70uzRVyF]
[build=Hex remove heal;OANDUrptSxMVVKgGNTftERgyEA]as an alternative if you are expecting lots of nasty hexes *ahem* FoW *ahem*[divert [email protected]][signet of lost [email protected]][signet of [email protected]][signet of [email protected]][dwaynas [email protected]][cure [email protected]][dismiss condition][restore [email protected]]
[build=Minion master;OABDQatmSxMVVVBoBLCKVJgdCA]
[build=Prot with shambling;OANDUrpvSxMVVKgHVBE1D3VyEA]
[build=Restore life;OAhjUoGYIPxsqaGbcKNHmTuLGA]
[build=Restore recovery;OAhjUoGYIPxsqKxjaLNHmTuLGA]

[divert [email protected]][signet of lost [email protected]][signet of [email protected]][signet of [email protected]][dwaynas [email protected]][cure [email protected]][dismiss condition][restore [email protected]] ----- 12 Healing prayers.... 12+1+2 soul reaping (you can even kick the non elite hex/condition removals for stuff like [healing ring] to keep your minions from popping too fast.)

There, nobody should have any trouble with hexes after that. That is one hero that handles all the hex/condition removal as well as [[dwaynas sorrow] for the minions and [[signet of sorrow] which is like a mini discord because of all the corpses that will be laying around it has rapid fire potential. It would fit in any 6 hero discord team. The reason for multiple hex/condition removal skills even though they have short recharge time is so that hero is able to spam the removals on the whole party which should quench the hex/condition almost as soon as it pops up.
And i might add that the bar is very cheap to cast since most skills are only 5 energy cost, so you could even stick it on a Mo/Me with minimal E-Management. ([[leech signet] or [[power drain] or [[energy tap]).

Daesu · Nov 17, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

There are a lot of ways to get your minions into death nova range. Whether it's casting a decoy assassin or knocking down the casters for a second. Not to mention because of our curse necromancers with shambling horrors, those go in first and result in 4 or so of your minions dying. Then the bulk of your army (the minions with death nova) rush in after they waste their aoe and bam still huge damage. So you can consider the shambling horrors the decoys for your true army.

That is provided they dont have any melee (e.g. Afflicted Warriors/assassins) in the group to hold off your minions while their casters attack from far. Even if your shamblings transform, they are still being held back by melee. Even if the melee fighters died to your initial DN, you still have to cast DN on your jagged as they move towards the casters which takes 2s casting time per minion.

Not saying it cant be done, but DN and individual minion placements are hard to control during battle. That is why I dont believe in the effectiveness of 2 DN versus 1. Sometimes it can work well, but other times it doesn't.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 17, 2008, 09:41 AM // 09:41

You seem to get too focused on individual instances. You seem to think that the hero can only death nova and all your damage is coming from the minions. Your forgetting that most of your damage is coming from the fact your spiking down enemies within 3-5 seconds for each death.

If an enemy is blocking it, you spike it down and they unleash hell on the casters. Not to mention if the melee is strong it will kill a few minions and aid in it's own demise.

As ap nukers, you usually focus on monks/ harmful casters and let the enemy melee focus on your minions and all your newly created corpses are summoning even more minions to attack the casters left over. By the time you nuke all the harmful casters and healers, the melee has died on it's own by death novas on the minions. Not every minion will get stuck on melee when you have 18+ minions.

The jagged isn't meant for anything other than an extra minion to block and absorb damage. It is free out of the death of the shambling.

When you have 2 sets of minions and an army of about 16+ the odds of all of them being blocked by melee is almost impossible. Unless there is an area where corpses are too small or not at all, minions and death nova are pretty much required for their potential and effectiveness in every situation.

If they weren't worth the trouble of sometimes having them not work effectively (such as ele nuking them all before they get in range) then everyone wouldn't be using them.

Think of it like this, the enemy melee will be fighting with anywhere from 10 to 24 or so minions. Your casters will be taking out there casters a lot faster than they can damage you. Then your minions continue to summon and death nova around any enemy left standing. So in every fight you will have the upperhand, excluding of course, super hard/ elite areas.

I think your getting too caught up in the secondary effect of the team build (the minion army and death novas), and not focusing on target selection and nuking the rest of the enemies with discord. Think of the minions as support and the discord as the main build.

upier · Nov 17, 2008, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

[divert [email protected]][signet of lost [email protected]][signet of [email protected]][dwaynas [email protected]][cure [email protected]][purge conditions][spotless [email protected]][restore [email protected]]

[divert [email protected]][signet of lost [email protected]][signet of [email protected]][dwaynas [email protected]][cure [email protected]][purge conditions][spotless [email protected]][restore [email protected]] ----- 12 Healing prayers.... 12+1+2 soul reaping (you can even kick the non elite hex/condition removals for stuff like [healing ring] to keep your minions from popping too fast.)

This is what I always get stuck on.
Any reason why run Purge AND Spotless if you can just run Dismiss?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I understand that SoLS is not required. The main reason I use it, is for an extra self heal and if some heroes especially minion bombers are casting protective spirit a lot and summoning minions and using aegis. Or if your fighting a long fight and minions already die they need a little boost.

Ahh, but do the guys even use it as a self-heal?
I never paid attention to it's usage.